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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 14:41:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rees Noturana on 15/08/2011 14:42:47 Edit: yes, feeding off of Shasz's ideas above.
I have to admit the concept for smallholding came as a surprise, but a welcome one. I can see this providing the opportunity for the 'dead horse pos' redesign that has been floating around forever and the chance for those of us wanting a smaller operation outside of null sec not involving huge alliances.
One person commented on making it like a dead space site which is intriguing as well. We could explore to find an interesting location, perhaps once that contained some local flavor like gas clouds and decorative rocks we could then build a deadspace jump gate to provide access. Basically, we gain the ability to make deadspace homes just like the NPCs do.
The jump gate could even be configured like the sites. Small home owners than only fly cruisers would limit the gate to cruiser and below. Those that want to access it with a carrier would be opening it up to assault by capitals. Maybe the gate needs an access key but can be hacked over time. Not with a few minutes of work but make someone have to be dedicated.
This would allow those that want to actively deny us access to our home to camp our gate and eventually hack the gate and place combat forces inside.
I'd like to see a single customizable structure inside as suggested by the dead-horse threads. Sentry defenses would be more vulnerable but the main structure would have its shields that can last some time.
I'm loving this concept and can't wait to see how this develops. |
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 15:00:00 -
[2]
I don't think it should be thought of as a micro starbase but as starbase version 2.0. A small starbase can support maybe a few people if they just use it as a garage. A large can handle industry for a small corp but soon you'll be running out of room and need multiple starbases.
If the smallholding becomes the next starbase but redesigned to be modular then it meets their goals of a supporting small corporations in the wild. The more a smallholding is upgraded the more vulnerable it should become to being found and eventually taken out of service. The smaller ones should be too much trouble to hassle with allowing small time producers and explorers to operate somewhat safely out of them.
I think 10 mil ISK is a bit cheap but perhaps it scales up as we upgrade the CPU, power plant, hangar, etc.
Oh, and make it Incarna enabled. Yes, I like to sit on my couch while working out of game. Being able to meet my corp mates in the lounge or corp office in it would be cool too. Four racial variants, maybe tweaked for pirate factions as well.
These places would make for small scale combat sites against pirates or roaming gangs from your neighbors too.
Add in exploration based mining and more agile mining vessels and I'd be a happy null-sec camper.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 15:13:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ya Huei I envision some sort of customizable (like t3 cruisers) sub cap ship with a limited hangar/cargo for holding ships and materials.
Maybe for the nomadic lifestyle option, which is also appealing. We can't really do a good nomad right now.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 15:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: GizzyBoy I don't see the point of a small station type system that possible has little to no automated defenses and possible is just one big little pinyata for a sc gang to crack open.
I think the current deadspace mechanic with jump gates that restrict access based on ship size that would scale according to the size the hidden base would both limit super cap gangs insta-popping your house as well as provide a choke point for both attackers and defenders.
Allowing sentry guns both on the gate and around your cabin/laboratory/garage would keep things interesting as well.
These personal deadspace areas also provide for the 'terrain' that CCP has been wanting to introduce. Think of these spaces like mini w-space systems. Perhaps you live in a gas cloud that affects ships like some w-space systems do. Maybe you can even have linked deadspace areas where you have another base with your expensive labs deeper inside. Maybe we have homes that are built on asteroids. All sorts of opportunities here...
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 16:46:00 -
[5]
@Greyscale:
Yes, this is exactly what I would like to see.
By deep space I'm guessing you are referring to greater than normal distances from celestials making them not appear on normal scans or probing. If that is the case will we be getting some sort of mechanic to manually plot a course to a deep space point or would we have to scan down appropriate pockets of space using something like deep space probes?
Please do consider the concept of 'terrain' for these homes. A small structure floating deep in empty space is cool on its own but would be more interesting if the pocket had some character to it.
It will become normal practice to clear systems of squatters so they must be hard to find. Of course, these kinds of bases will become normal for spies and covert assault teams in enemy space. Sounds good
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 17:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Newt Rondanse The main problem at that point becomes how do you establish your base foothold for a deep space station?
If the cabin in the wilderness is going to work for solo and small corps you have to be able to fit the parts into a blockade runner. Expecting a freighter or some sort of capital blows the 10 mil ISK starting cost out of the water. You should have to make a run for each module to making setting up your home a bit more work.
Trip one, find an appropriate spot using a cov ops frigate or exploration T3 for more advanced pilots.
Trip two, anchor your initial 'home' module and get the lights turned on. Maybe it comes with enough docking space for your transport and a cruiser or three.
Subsequent trips you bring some sentry guns, a laboratory, various small factory upgrades. Upgrade your ship hangar or storage with some more modules. It could take weeks for a solo pilot to build this all up, one module at a time.
I do like Greyscale's concept of upgrading a small part of space. It sounds like parts of iHubs but attached to your cabin. I set up a scanner to start looking for better mining sites, etc.
It needs to be a personal asset though, but shareable by way of personal standings. If I give someone +10 standings and the location of my home they should be able to come visit, dock, walk to a common area.
Actually, give the option to deploy for self or deploy for corporation.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 17:17:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kotami Edited by: Kotami on 15/08/2011 17:12:36 I'm very in favor of making 0.0 more accessible to non-PVP (read, industrialists) oriented players. However...
Quote: Accessible
Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK) should be able to establish some small, semi-permanent presence in nullsec. Not everyone wants to get involved in nullsec, but every player that feels even a slight interest but never quite takes the plunge represents a failure of design that we should fix.
Not possible. I'm sure your aware that it takes billions of ISK to run a proper T2 manufacturing operation. BILLIONS. Not even to mention the time invested in researching BPOs. How do you expect the non-PVP smallholders to mitigate that risk?
I'm sorry, but until proven wrong, the only thing I can interpret from all of this is that a bunch of 0.0 CSM members are advocating for a more target rich environment full of non-PVP players worth BILLIONS if\when they manage to pop the pinata.
Prove me wrong.
The smallholding doesn't mean it's a T2 factory operation. If its like PI where we plant a small command center and then upgrade as needed then maybe the smallest structure, or the seed, is in the 10's of millions. If all you want is a garage to park your T3 and then go look for null sec radar sites then don't upgrade. But if you want a large T2 operation then it should cost over 1 billion, like a large starbase with labs and factories does today.
I think the idea is to make it start small and then we make it what we want.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 17:32:00 -
[8]
@Grayscale
I know this question is a bit early but are there any concepts on fueling a small holding? You mentioned a bi-weekly supply run but will this be some of that null sec only ice product or something a small time operator can find and produce on their own.
I'm still not sold on 100% null sec only ice. It feels like an arbitrary thing. Just make it so you have to work to find it.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 18:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vincent Jarjadian If you could maybe edit Small POSs to use little or no fuel and be anchored anywhere... these could serve as the smallholdings.
Please, don't reuse small POS. Starbases have needed to be redone for quite some time and this is the perfect opportunity.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 22:28:00 -
[10]
Expecting pilots to have hidden homes in someone's back yard invites us to bring up the question of w-space style delayed local in 0.0 again.
Being invisible in local would allow the adventurous ones to be occasionally seen on scanners but once we are safely passed out on our couches we can live in peace unless someone gets lucky with some long range probes. Of course all the advantages to implementing delayed local have been discussed before but the more I think about it, the more I think that this is the only way 0.0 hidden bases will work.
There will be a couch, right?
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.15 23:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nikkov I don,t like the idea of "Smallholding" This idea of " cheap, Predictable security" does not fit well with the "unforgiving" mechanics of the game.
0.0 has always been "end game" material... and the team effort, isk and time invested in it sets it apart from any other mmo. And that drive, that lust of accomplishing this difficult task, is what keeps me coming back to EvE after 8 years...
It has to be predictable enough that a solo player can survive longer than a few days or it'll quickly die off. Once discovered the locals could make using the spider hole a living hell and you'll have to pack as much as you can and move on. But if I'm a casual player and only log a few times a week it should be safe enough for me to at least log in and determine if its safe enough to keep using or time to go and squat in someone else's backyard.
The risk will be using it enough without being followed home and once its found how much do I have to abandon because the entrance is bubbled and watched.
Most solo pilot homes won't be a big risk to the local sov holder. But they sure as hell will be tracking down any belong to spies and gankers.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.16 15:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale None whatsoever, and we'd probably enable it globally. There are various other things in this plan which will find use in other areas of the game too, we're just focusing on the nullsec advantages for the purposes of this document
Details! Your blog was way to short on them. Punkturis says you never write enough.
- What other uses? That intrigues me.
- Are you considering these things to be the start of Starbases 2.0?
- Are you considering making them usable both as personal and/or corporate structures?
- How about actually docking and walking around? Being able to RP/socialize with friends via Incarna.
- Can you explain your concept of 'deep space' a bit more.
- Will the use of these things for infiltrating enemy space be a concern or accepted as a new tactic?
- Do you have any concepts on how these things might remain hard to discover?
I know you are early in the design process but I'm sure you got some ideas about these things already.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.16 19:43:00 -
[13]
More questions and ideas...
How many properties will a pilot be able to have? Only one or perhaps one per skill level of something, like anchoring. Could I setup a more permanent high sec home where I keep my trophy gear, another in low sec where I also park a cyno alt and a third in null that I use for my home within an alliance or for null exploration for as long as it lasts?
Will a holding be able to support all the activities of an industrial pilot and replace the need for a high sec research starbase? Could I have a high sec home that I park my Orca at and run 11 each of lab and factory slots? What about reactions for polymers and boosters? How about refining? Maybe a choice of refineries between perfect and fast or large quantities.
Could a w-space industrialist create all T3 products while in unknown space by upgrading his homestead to the maximum or will starbases still be needed?
I guess the root question is will a holding be able to fully support a wealthy and independent pilot and allow them to do all they need or will they still be dependent on stations, starbases and outposts to produce their products?
With their low cost and the goal to allow young pilots to start setting up their home there will be an explosion of these in high sec and beyond. If they can show up on scans they need to be filterable. I don't want to see them expire after some time though. If i'm out of game for a few months I'd hate to have my home disappear unless it was forcibly evicted from null sec by the local war lord.
And maybe the most important question...
Large lounge with a view of space, complete with bar, barmaids, henchmen and exotic dancers?
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.17 14:49:00 -
[14]
It's probably not hard to notice but the smallholding is definitely my favorite concept of this dev blog. I think it has the potential to radically change how people approach the sandbox. More flexibility is given to the single pilot to operate where and how they want to. An alliance may need to appease the solo pilot more because they won't have the power to simply kick them from a corp and lock them out of their outpost. New alliances may form around trade and mutual defense agreements between the locals. It could be kind of like the old west where new towns would pop up for trade between the locals.
Another section is about defining a home for yourself and this is one option that really lends itself to the smallholding. It literally becomes your home. I think its important that it has character to it. Today's starbase is just a tower, with blocks and a bubble in space. Fine, but it looks like every other tower of the same faction. We need our homestead to have more interest than that, which is why I keep coming back to the old school deadspace idea. Even if there is no accel gate to control access there needs to be visual interest. We should have to look for our perfect home and exploration is the way to do it.
I should be able to choose between a clean and modern looking Gallente mansion or a warm and pieced together Minmatar mining asteroid. The Amarr could look like a gleaming gold estate or cathedral. The Caldari could have a cold, corporate look. Perhaps you can find blueprints for faction homesteads too. Maybe they have different capabilities but they most certainly would have a different appearance, at least for the core home design. As much as I don't like the current NeX store pricing, this is exactly the kind of bling item people would spend real money on. This means more than the latest pair of boots or odd monocle thing. Don't rage on me for saying that. I don't want to see anything hit the NeX that isn't just bling but if anything belongs in the store it would be a mansion blueprint.
There should be bits of asteroids, debris or gas clouds around for more visual interest. Even better would be having the option to stick modules on as we see fit. Silos, labs and other add-ons may have one standard across the factions. Some modules could just be for walking around. Perhaps domed gardens, pleasure hubs (dancers please), maybe a massive corporate command center for your minions to come kneel before your might.
We are demigods roaming the skies. When we return home it should feel like we're returning to our estate. When I visit a friend's house to prepare to go run anomalies together or trade that latest loot you found it should feel like I'm at someone else's house. Your wealth should definitely be applicable to your home design. It should be clear if the pilot is young and just getting started or has amassed a fortune.
The Incarna aspect is definitely one part of it. The ability to have covert meetings and hand off less than legal items would be cool. But its also part of coming home. Maybe, at some point you'll even have meetings go bad and you can send someone back to their clone vat and take their ship that they parked in your garage. Or the other way around...
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.17 16:47:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Rees Noturana on 17/08/2011 16:47:29 It's interesting to see this conversation turn toward alliances and our experiences with them. I enjoyed my time with alliances but felt I could not contribute as they needed me to contribute. They needed my help but real life did not give me the freedom to act as they needed me to. Personally, I'm not looking for 0.0 to be handed to me on a silver platter.
I want to be able to exist on the fringes, to watch as major fleets roll by to inflict billions of ISK of damage on each other and bring solar systems to a grinding halt with the sheer weight of their gravity fields. Maybe I'll pick through whatever wreckage is left behind. I'm totally fine with being that weird old man living in his cabin far from the warmth of the sun that you sometimes spot on d-scan. If you choose to hunt me down that's fine too. You rack up a few kills and I get to buy some new ships. I'll do my best with whatever creature comforts I can install in my home and do without for those that I can't.
What the smallholdings can do is provide an alternate lifestyle in null sec. It's a giant sandbox but currently there is mostly one method of play out there. There are a few solo pilots out there now but mostly space is controlled by alliances. It'll be nice to seem so new options in the null sec sandbox and a few new characters to populate it.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Vincent Athena I do not quite understand what CCP means by "small holding", maybe they can explain? Is it
A hidden base in someone else's sov space A hidden base in unclaimed space A small amount of space, say just one system, claimed by a small alliance?
At its most basic it seems be to a pilot's personal starbase, possibly shareable with corp or friends, that is very difficult to detect unless you park next to it AFK throwing off a nice signature to lock onto. Greyscale says being able to dock is key and most of us agree. It is designed for null sec but currently not limited to where it can be anchored.
All other functionality seems to be undecided at this point.
For those that don't want to dock: WTF? This is supposed to be a full sic-fi simulator, not world of tanks in space. We finally get both spaceships and walking avatars. Don't look at today's Incarna functionality as the end all, be all of walking. It was a STRESS TEST, which it clearly succeeded on the stress part.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.18 16:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vincent Athena If I can set up in someone else's sov, then big alliances will use this to plant spies all over each others territory. Sounds like a bad idea.
I think this is one of the big questions. What RP mechanic would prevent a pilot to establish their home in alliance space not belong to them? What prevents someone from anchoring a firebase starbase in another alliance's space? Currently you can only establish a planetary colony on a planet not covered by sovereignty. I get the impression that they are considering making sovereignty not quite as all powerful though to increase the stress of actually locking down a system.
AFK cloaking spies to gather intel and hotdrop on your enemy are a fact of life. Smallholdings will only help that by allowing for a cache of supplies that is easier to use than anchoring some GSC. They want to push alliance holdings to be smaller and for smaller but more frequent fights. Will smallholdings in enemy space help or hurt that?
I haven't spent enough time in an alliance to suggest either way. What I do know is that alliances currently hold and defend fairly large swathes of under utilized space and I'm more than happy to attempt to make use of it. Maybe even make friends with the locals and eventually join up with them.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:18:00 -
[18]
Originally by: El 1974 It will take too much coding and time to implement and will have (unintended) impact on other parts of the game. Keep it simple.
I wouldn't aim too low. This is part of a 5 year plan and things will get smashed down into something they feel is manageable, and then again when they run out of time. These crazy viking types like to plan big. If you had a personal/small corp starbase just for yourself that you could call home. What would you like to see?
We already have GSCs and cloaking devices but they don't feel like home. More like camping out in a military zone.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: El 1974 I'm not willing to wait 5 years until they have devised a plan. They have other plans for the near future that will consume most of their coding time, so they have time to discuss nullsec before adding significant amounts of code. To get something done soon rather than in five years it must be simple.
Bad wording on my part: 5-year roadmap. Phase one is the winter expansion. Phase 10 is winter 2016. It's not like we won't see anything until phase 10.
This type of brainstorming is typical for any form of creative development. What pops out the other end rarely matches most of the ideas that are generated at the beginning. CCP is drawing upon their large and creative user base to see what we are interested in. Hundreds of people providing input beats a small team doing the same. I think it's a fantastic opportunity to be part of the initial creative process and I thank CCP for it.
All I'm saying is let's not ask for tweaks to GSC for smallholdings when we can aim a bit higher.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:36:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Rees Noturana on 19/08/2011 15:37:01
Originally by: Xearal Inside the pocket, there would be room to put up stuff, maybe equal to a small POS for the corp itself, and room for members to pitch their 'tent' mentioned above. a central 'hub' where corp members can all dock, with more room than a tent for each individual, and a (limited) corporate hangar. additional things could be added to the whole thing by adding more modules, so a big operation could house manufacturing bays, silo's, reactors, labs, and whatnot you'd find in a POS. Though it would be much better suited to have this stuff just being anchored, and then once that's done, available to a docked person.
I like the idea of a corporate sized deadspace providing the full Starbase 2.0 with individual dwellings surrounding it. All sorts of interaction between the starbase and the dwellings could occur. Maybe the dwellings can draw from the increased power grid and cpu of a central tower which would allow or increase the capabilities of individually owned lab and factory slots.
In return normal dwellings not in a corp deadspace pocket would be very limited. This would encourage members to all pitch their tent within the corporate area.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.23 21:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza and a compact WiS environment for w-space inhabitants
^^ - Kill this idea with fire. Douse it in gasoline and burn the *****. There is *no* reason to bring WiS to WH's.
period.
FULL STOP!
So, you're saying you are not a fan of Incarna or the full sci-fi simulator that EVE was always intended to be. Message received. Personally, I'm hoping that a few years from now people look back and wonder how we played with only spaceships.
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.24 13:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 24/08/2011 13:11:10
Originally by: Rees Noturana So, you're saying you are not a fan of Incarna or the full sci-fi simulator that EVE was always intended to be.
You so FUNNY! Eve *only* started down the path to "full sci-fi simulator" about 6 years ago... Long after it was envisioned and work began. As a matter of fact, there is a thread around here somewhere (may have been saved on another forum) where the devs are commenting on the fact that if you missed a day of work, you might have missed the water cooler conversation that changed the direction from internet spaceships to fantasy swords and sorcery back to internet spaceships.
So yeah, CCP may have come up with that marketing point at some time in the past, but it was *not* always supposed to be a "full sci-fi simulator"...
EDIT: Small holdings are kewl sounding, but several issues (as has been brought up in this thread) have to be addressed. The reason WH's work is because they are limited in ways in and out, mass limits, and constantly changing location.
Well my EVE started in 2008 so if I've been fed revisionist, water cooler created history then I apologize. Directions do change with any project but either way it looks like we are in different camps. I want both Flying-in-Space and Walking-Everywhere in the same game and I don't see any reason why we can't as long as CCP has enough devs to cover both. That is the critical issue though.
Sounds like its time to start political parties. AMBULATORS vs EGGERS!
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Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Urgg Boolean
Originally by: Zenith Intaki <snip> There should be somekind of massive 'mothership' that could serve as mobile starbase.
Not having read through all 7+ pages of posts: so far this sounds a lot like the old concept bounced around the forums about a Mothership and I like it.
I apologize in advance because I'm about to be skeptical. It looks like CCP is giving us an opportunity to have input. This is either because they truly want our input, or this gives us the illusion of participating in game development while they have no intention of ever using or adopting any of our ideas. For all we know, that hand-written flow chart of new game concepts is as far as they will take it.
Having said that, the flow of ideas in this thread by the player base is extraordinary. I applaud the player base!!! As for CCP, I'll pay more attention to what they actually do, rather than what they say.
CCP's original concept is:
Quote:
Pretty much anyone with a little seed capital (~10m ISK) should be able to establish some small, semi-permanent presence in nullsec.
While a mobile base that could be moved into position does have some appeal I think they want to make this easy, and perhaps somewhat disposable. 10m ISK tells me that they want to make this accessible to fairly young pilots without bankrupting them.
I think the concepts of nomadic home ships and fixed, easy to setup homesteads both have merit.
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